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Ramma

Current state of "Network"

What kind of work would you like us to focus on in the near future?  

17 members have voted

  1. 1. What kind of work would you like us to focus on in the near future?

    • New maps for old servers
      0
    • Brand new maps for new game modes
      17


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So... As I think everything here has been said more than just perfectly... I just want to add that as Network staff and a normal community member, also as Ex Manager , I've seen how much attention modded receives and I think Network should as well.

Since I joined the community, in late 2016, nothing has been changed on the server, except mc versions and some plugins, which always were buggy af. (Good Yusixs added a map to ctw that has been created like em 2 years ago?, aslo thx for the lobby NPCs, but this doesn't help as much as it would've when there were still people) I tried my best, as all of the staff, to bring some life to it, but as we don't have the power to do that we were basically helpless. 

I also tried to help when I was gone, and then when I returned. I wasn't ready to return yet, but I did cuz you Henk saw me ''staffing'' and staff can't be doing that unless it's not in the discord. And what was I expected to do since I had my perms, simply joined the server to play a bit and a guy asked me for help? Ignore him and be like, "meh I got perms but I'm retired, so ask the staff"??  

Henk, you did right removing my perms as Manager, since I didn't listen to you and didn't know what I were doing. BUT I want everyone to know that I never had the intention to harm/damage/hurt the server or anyone at all. Why wouldn't I listen tho? Em, maybe because nothing changed for so many years and I couldn't just stay and watch anymore... You know new people started joining Skyblock? and in general, the whole server. But guess what, when they joined and saw the plugin not working they asked when it's going to be fixed... best part I couldn't reply cuz no one knows lol Nevermind. I did that just to keep them on the server and I don't regret my decision. 

I don't want to throw shades at anyone for this. There's no need since everything is pretty much obvious. And the fact that I returned a week ago and still have no role on the forum... 

Will leave that like this, unfinished, as Network is. There's so much to say, but meh, words do nothing, actions do. 

 

Take my Deivid now ?

 

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   Bruny we know you see / will see this but please don't take it for "another one of those". This is a post that just describes the state of network perfectly and hopefully it won't be neglected the way it's been for I would say close to 2 years. Might not seem like it's been 2 years but network has been going downhill for so long and it's been sugarcoated for just as much.

   I think bruny's attention and just solid staff that we know we have can make the server better, because it's just a shame seeing potential just fly by. I don't want to repeat anything else said prior to this reply, but I think many players will be happy to come back to this server eventually.

   This is just something I've had on my mind ever since I've seen where network ended up. I really really hope this server can be brought back to what it's been because it has been a pleasure playing on it in 2015, when mostly all was going good. ❤️

 

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Guest IIonions

So I guess this is a thing so its time for another two cents to be thrown in. I've been here for a long time, longer than I'm proud of to be honest, I need a life. However, this also means I have seen this community over a much longer space of time and seen how it has changed and how it has developed, and sadly, how it has also taken steps backward.

 

So back in 2015, I stumbled across the network community, and played CTW like a religion, I was never that good, never built up a reputation, but I enjoyed it and that was all a young onion cared about back then. I would say things were looking good back in 2015, now obviously the forums were clogged up at the time as Brunyman was the sole manager, putting an awful lot of pressure under him of course. As time continued, modded servers were released, the waters were tested, and workload was shared. The community was looking great, modded had a nice following across a couple of servers, and network was thriving. There were many youtube creators making content and showing the server to many others, albeit the spanish community mainly, so language barriers appeared from times to times but Network was thriving, and modded was the secondary source of players. As time went on, people came and go, and the modded community grew, servers were released and the work load increased. 

 

Am I rambling? Probably but I like a good backstory, and I can't help but notice many fresher faces and I thought Papa Onions could provide a backstory, just letting you all know that Network was the main... image (I guess) of CL. When powerwarp was here, there were many promotional activities occuring, giveaways, charity fundraisers, and many more. This grew the sense of community, brought more people together and made the network a community rather than just another server. Recently it feels like a robot operates the servers, there is 0 communication between management and players, which is vital. We want to know what you do behind the scenes and you should let us know. Why? For the reason of, at the minute many people have the idea that some people are very lazy and do nothing, giving weekly, heck even monthly updates to your community gives us, the players, the information we want. That your still there, working on the server and caring for your playerbase.

Here are some graphs to feast your eyes on. Yes they are from the basic minecraft-mp website so they arent 100% accurate, but they are still very much so relevant and still show a trend.

unknown.png

The first one, is of the network server. The far left being around 388 players, the spike in the middle last year was around the time of multiple network wipes and the release of 1.13, and the far right, this month, being around 37.... In 2 years, the community lost roughly 350 players in 24 months. Now of course people never stay around forever, but between Jan 2018 and July 2018 there was a steady decrease of players monthly. Now I'm pretty sure that Henk was the manager of network at this time, and honestly as a manager this should be picked up on right away and the question why should be asked to resolve this. Now to compare, here is the modded graph from the same website.

unknown.png

Yes, yes, it says Direwolf 1.7 at the top, but we all know the way modded is hosted. Now for comparison, 24 months ago it was saying 147 max, now it says 257 max currently. A steady growth, and for that i applaud. Modded has been growing at a nice rate, but on the flipside, look at network. The community has gained maybe 150 players for modded (including tekkit in that estimate) but what has it lost? 200 Network players. Overall? a downgrade, however modded is still growing but frankly that may change soon, but that is another discussion for another time.

 

So what is it im getting at, I guess this is a sort of TL;DR. As shown above modded has clearly and obviously been the centre of attention, the favourite child etc. Whilst Network has clearly been majorly neglected, some of the servers just flat out not working. As others have stated, I'm going to have to name you again Henk, at one stage you were the dedicated manager for Network, however currently Network is just a joke inbetween staff. We all know this to be true, when the question of who networks manager is the response is "Anyones guess". Which if you couldn't tell isnt good and isn't proper. Now I can understand that with the current 14 servers for modded you are running that things get busy and you can be swamped with another however many network servers on top of that. You need to moderate the load, everyone is deadset on modded whilst Net is frankly an utter mess and an embarassment to the CL name. As stated by others above, some of the server literally don't work, which is disgraceful. No, I'm not pointing this at anyone in particular, im directing this to management as a whole. People have quit staff, people have been stressed to the way that Network has been treated with them sacrificing themselves to attempt to fix it, but to no avail. Take a look at CL's history and what has worked in the past, and stop using the excuse of "Network is a hard market". That isnt the point, a hard market to gain population, sure. That however is not an excuse for the server to be an utter shambles and barely functioning.

 

Thats my 2 cents, my word has been preached. Want my god awful opinion on anything else my dms are open. I don't want to see this community crumble like others I have been a part of. I want to see it prosper, but honestly, you have made too many mistakes similar to the ones I have been a part of that have fallen. Im just here to point them out and hopefully help.

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First of all, I want to introduce myself for everybody who doesn't know me. Some of you who have been here for a long time still might remember me as Seragus, (#BlameSeragus), but as you can see. I have been playing on my main account, flamefurno since late 2017.


Second of all. I have a request for everybody else who is feeling motivated to create a reply after reading our posts: Please don't. As much as you want to let out your feelings and thoughts, this post was meant to give Network some attention and I think with these big walls of text, that we have more than succeeded in that. With that out of the way, let's get to the main topic, shall we?


I've been part of this community for multiple years and I joined the staff team in early 2016. Although I mainly play modded, I have paid multiple visits throughout the years to our Network server and even though I don't have as much knowledge about what is going on as some other fellow members of our Network, I still feel like I should give an input here, as I have been around for quite some time and together with them, as sad as it is to say, have witnessed the fall of Network. After all, CraftersLand isn't just a community, it's a minecraft network right?

There is no denying that Network has been a delicate subject for the past couple of years, Throughout the years many staff members came and many went away. Some because of personal reasons, some not. Some could not stand the downfall of Network. Some could not handle the stress and frustration Network gave when they weren't able to help, because of issues on the servers side. If volunteering staff members go away because of reasons as these, then isn't it maybe time to reconsider how certain things are being handled and shouldn't they be changed? 

As someone who has been around CraftersLand for over a third of his life, I am grateful. Grateful for the people I met, friends I made, opportunities I got, the laughs made, the tears I shed and just being part of everything that makes CraftersLand so great. CraftersLand and everybody part of it is like a family to me. I guess because of this, it hurts me so much to see how poorly Network is being treated. As Onion showed in his post, we can clearly see the state Network has fallen in. A steady decline during the past one and a half to two years, if not for longer. Our Network servers are a part of our CraftersLand community and I am sorry to say I feel disgraced by the neglect it has received.

Henk, if you are reading this: Although we usually shit talk each other (which I wouldn't have any other way :D) , I really think you are a great guy, I honestly do. However, with Yusixs leaving the manager team and explaining his reasons to me, I started to have some doubt in certain manager aspects to say the least. And let's kick in the door here: When I told you I was planning to work on a new map for AssassinsCraft to bring some new life towards Network, you said that bruny didn't want to update the map with the latest update and that it would require a lot of work. With this reply, I must congratulate you, because this was the first thing in a long time that actually completely blew me away. Network has slowly been dying, ofcourse it takes a lot of work to rebuild that! And unless you are also against updating the map: You are the manager. If you think that a new map would really help the server, then shouldn't it be your task to try to convince bruny to let us help him revive network?

Bruny, if you are reading this: I have never really spoken to you about anything important, as that was usually just me telling stuff to my higherups and them forwarding it to you, so for that, all I can do is thank you for creating this amazing community. However, as this community contradictionary to our Network servers is growing, I think it would be a good idea to put some more trust into your staff members. I know of the initial incident why you lost quite some trust in the first place and don't give all the permissions to just anybody. However, that era is gone. At last, I have a suggestion that in my opinion would support our growing network: Get 3 managers and if wished, give them a maximum period of being a manager. With 3 managers, there will be no tyranny and no endless discussions between two parties trying to convince each other. 

For everybody who read our posts, thanks for taking the time. The goal of this post was to bring serious attention to Network and I believe we have more than succeeded in that. For the higherups: Please come forward, accept the situation and stop letting Network suffer like a chained starving animal. Either kill it, or put in the time and effort to let it recover.

With that, another thanks to everybody. involved. ~Flamefurno

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Everything written below until the red line was written yesterday, so keep that in mind when you read words like "today" for example, as I won't go thru it all and change the grammar to reflect it being yesterday

 

Hello everyone, it's me. I'll try to answer to everything you guys have brought up, I will try to keep it in somewhat of a chronological order, but a few different points may come up twice and then I'll try to get both my points across in one instead of repeating myself further down the line.

First and foremost, yes, I am the Network manager. 

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20 hours ago, Ramma said:
the current Skyblock server is bugged, you can't create Islands for some reason and it just replies with "Your Island is currently being created" but that's an infinite being created message, and the island is never actually created.


Yes, this should've been looked into ages ago. 
However, I did message Bruny on Tuesday asking if he knew anything about this, and if I could go in and tweak a few things to see if I could get it working. Since Craftersland has a lot of custom made plugins we also have a lot of custom patches on plugins. A good example of this is like the market plugin has a bug in it where you can specify max listings with permissions, we have a patch in place for that, and if I were to update the plugin then that patch would get removed - unless of course the plugin creator fixed the issue.

Anyways, he got back to me on Wednesday and I today spent a few hours trying to fix the issue. It's actually quite problematic, you see, skyblock relies on three key plugins - Worldedit, Worldguard and uSkyblock. for those unaware, worldedit deals with the whole deletion of your island as well as pasting the schematic in for your island. Worldguard handles protection so you dont' get griefed, and uSkyblock handles everything else, like the /is commands. 

Problem was that uSkyblock got stuck in a loop whenever someone would create a new island, or remove his old, or restart her island. This is because the version of worldedit we are running doesn't work very well, so what happens is worldedit fails to paste the schematic or remove your island. and since uSkyblock is waiting for that to happen, it gets stuck in a loop. 
Ok, what can I do about that? I could update the plugin- Which I did, and it shouldn't come as a surprise for someone what happened,... Worldguard broke instead. Meaning that protection on the server stopped working. Since Worldguard in turn relies on Worldedit to work, brilliant, right? 
And with me having tested all available versions of worldedit, as well as for uskyblock and worldguard, they all have one of these bugs. 


So why is this?

The problem is that we are running on a 1.13.2 spigot version since the 1.14.4 doesn't work on SB. - but we use a protocol hack to get around this so that 1.14.4 clients can still join. 
Hello! It's me from the future, I already tried the version of spigots that we have available. But I also spoke a bit more to Bruny today and he said he would attempt to update to TRUE 1.14.4 and see if he can fix this in the coming days.
And this causes a lot of complications with plugins, it gets really confused about if 1.14.4 blocks should exist or not.. for instance. 

But I cannot do anything to fix that bug at the before worldedit/spigot fixes theirs. 

The server is still up in the meantime, so that anyone that has an island already can still play.

Quote

20 hours ago, Ramma said:
Minigames:


Do you guys wanna see more minigames? We have some great buildings and cities left over from the Drop Zone project that I imagine we could perhaps make something with. 
But I want you guys all to understand that publishing a new server alongside the ones we have will take a lot of development time, especially more so if it's something that would require a lot of Bruny's attention. Such as...
CTW maps, Since each game is a server, so you'd have to first create a server from scratch, set up all the objectives with a great plugin bruny once made, but that lacks any documentation, and then once that's done have it tie together with the existing system that also is poorly documented. Honestly? I wouldn't even know where to start there and that's something Bruny would have to do almost on his own.
But creating something from scratch is different. It will still take a lot of time 

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21 hours ago, Ramma said:
I'm asking you to PLEASE focus more on Network,


Alright, I will.

Quote

21 hours ago, Ramma said:
Also this was ignored sadly, I hope this post is also taken seriously too.

They are open now, whether you believe it or not, I had every intention of putting those apps up after this one had concluded. It ran a bit longer than I would've hoped. But I saw this topic and I read it, I never responded as I expected I would be putting the apps up within such a short time anyways- better to show than tell, right? Guess this time i should've done both.

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Quote

 

20 hours ago, geri33 said:
Since I joined the community, in late 2016, nothing has been changed on the server

 

 

 


We released ACv2, which could be argued to be just a new version. But we also worked on Drop Zone, and also published that little minigame. 
Yeah, it's not much, but it's very far from "nothing".

Quote

20 hours ago, geri33 said:
Henk, you did right removing my perms as Manager


It was nothing against you and I know you had good intentions, but it reminded me that we shouldn't have a bunch of ex-managers running around with permissions they no longer should have. And it's much harder to blame someone who isn't manager anymore if something goes horribly wrong  I'd much rather take the blame myself if I mess something up. 

Quote

20 hours ago, geri33 said:
And the fact that I returned a week ago and still have no role on the forum... 


Then tell us... It's not like you were intentionally not given the rank on the forum, that was an honest mistake. 

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Quote

18 hours ago, IIonions said:
When powerwarp was here, there were many promotional activities occuring, giveaways, charity fundraisers, and many more.


 I will say I have also done a fair few giveaways in the past, and staff arranged that pvp tournament a good while ago now. Not to say that I could take any credit of that. But sure, I'd be open to doing more events, I'm not overly creative bu feel free to put suggestions forward and maybe we'll just do that 
https://forum.craftersland.net/forum/154-suggestions/

 

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On 8/9/2019 at 1:50 AM, IIonions said:

We want to know what you do behind the scenes and you should let us know.

I definitely agree that we should be more open about what is happening or anything that is up and coming. But I also think that certain things should remain behind the scenes - not for all eternity, but until the time is right.

Let's take a real life example:
Game Developers generally never announce a project before they are far along into it that they with almost certainty can say that it will see the light of day. And that is important, because otherwise you would disappoint your community. A community that waited on something to happen, anticipated it.. and then it never did.

Let's take a craftersland example:
DropZone. We did not announce this project because of the same reasons, we only did announce it when we had decided to cancel the project and make a small minigame out of the work that a handful of dedicated staff and ex-staff had put into it. And first then tell the story. That project lived on for more than 6 months, imagine if I would've announced that on the first week? We would have people asking about it, asking about when it would be released. Asking why it is taking so long. These are all things that we can't anticipate beforehand, and that is why an ETA is so hard to give when a project isn't further along. And I don't want to disappoint people in announcing projects that may or may not be cancelled. Things do get cancelled and that's not a bad thing. 

--
Regardless of this, I feel we should still be more vocal about things that is going on. I think we should include you guys more about the changes that we make on the server and when we make them, even if they are small or larger. 
We used to have a monthly newsletter, I can't say that I agree on having something like that be a monthly thing- Because some months it just felt really forced. We didn't have much of an update because behind the scenes servers were having issues and we didn't make any advancements in any projects we had. I think it's better to say something when you have something to say. 

 

On 8/9/2019 at 1:50 AM, IIonions said:

the community lost roughly 350 players in 24 months.

On 8/9/2019 at 1:50 AM, IIonions said:

between Jan 2018 and July 2018

On 8/9/2019 at 1:50 AM, IIonions said:

the question why should be asked to resolve this.

 

For the record, I became manager on February 2018, so yes, I was around parts of this "era". But that's only when I received AdminCP on the forum, it was an additional few months until I'd call myself a manager.

But I don't think it's very fair to assume just because the events of me becoming a manager, and the decline of the players happened at the same time that it is the reason behind it. Correlation does not imply causation. I actually did a lot of work for network around this time and I did what I could do prevent it. But let's take a stroll down memory lane to go over this a bit further...

Ironically, when Craftersland Network was open to all versions between 1.7.4 and 1.12 we had a lot of bugs and issues that were simply not possible to fix. Since we used a lot of protocol hacks to make it possible to join with all these different versions- Just look at Skyblock and the reason why that is currently having a bit of an issue atm? It makes every issue a million times harder, because one version of a plugin needs to work on all these versions. And they rarely do. So we were a bit stuck here, 1.13.2 version came out and the spigot developers expressed that they had to drop quite a bit of backwards compatibility with bukkit and previous spigot versions due to how huge 1.13 was. This would completely break the whole protocol hack thing. 
So we had to make a choice, to move forward or keep the entire network at 1.12, obviously we chose the latter, since having servers like puresurvival not be the latest version? What would be the point in that.
So, we had to do a lot of work on network to get this ready, we had to completely re-do Acv1 using a bunch of custom made plugins to mirror the original game mode as much as possible. Since bruny did not want to make many changes to it. But finally we were ready to change the version of all of network to 1.13!... 

But it flopped. 

I don't exactly know why, I know we had a pretty crappy re-release, as we had gotten quite a few more issues with the whole 1.13 update. Since spigot was still in a test version and wasn't even recommended to run on a server :P
But I feel like maybe people left because of that, or that people were just using their old updates, and when they saw that they no longer could connect to it they just jumped to the next server instead of getting a different version. I am not exactly sure. 
But this was a move that we were forced to make, and sadly it didn't go very well.

The decline started to happen, I launched my Drop Zone project in June of 2018, hoping that a new and very unique game mode could bring some light back to Craftersland. But we know how that went :P

So again, I don't want to say that I sat idle and let this all happen. Could've I have done more? Probably. Could it have been saved or prevented? I don't actually think so, not without Bruny. We needed him to be more ontop of these bugs, and perhaps we should even have split the network into one that ran 1.7.4-1.12 and one that ran 1.13.2+. But that would've been a lot more servers, a lot more work to get it working, not to mention it would split the community in two, sort of making the point of a network obsolete.

Side note...
I'm not sure how these graphs work fully, comparing the network one to the modded one, I could only assume that it takes the highest playercount of each day of the month, and then averages those values. Because that is what makes the most sense on the modded side... But I honestly don't remember a time where network peaked at 200-400 players daily, but maybe my mind is just mistaken. 

Which for modded doesn't make a lot of sense either, we had many months were we didn't break 100 players per day, according to the graph we do...

On 8/9/2019 at 1:50 AM, IIonions said:

Overall? a downgrade, however modded is still growing but frankly that may change soon, but that is another discussion for another time.

Actually, looking at a few other figures, like daily rewards - which I can't share for GDPR reasons - it's actually an increase overall, so I'm not sure how accurate the graphs you are showing are. Regardless, it is a horrible decrease of players on network. 

 

-----------------

 

On 8/9/2019 at 2:21 AM, flamefurno said:

If volunteering staff members go away because of reasons as these, then isn't it maybe time to reconsider how certain things are being handled and shouldn't they be changed? 

Yes

 

On 8/9/2019 at 2:21 AM, flamefurno said:

When I told you I was planning to work on a new map for AssassinsCraft to bring some new life towards Network

You and I have spoken about this on discord already, but to give a bit of a recap for those who can't read our PMs ? - This was a bit of a misunderstanding on both our parts, I thought flame was talking about building something for a brand new server or minigame. And I did briefly explain with the example that is CTW, that it would be very difficult for me to implement a new map like this. However, I can more than easily add something to ACv2, but that never really came up in our PMs, or at least that's not how I interpreted it. 

If you guys want to make maps, then by all means. And if we don't use it today then perhaps we will further down the line, I already have a few plans of utilizing the cities from Drop Zone for something

On 8/9/2019 at 2:21 AM, flamefurno said:

ofcourse it takes a lot of work to rebuild that! And unless you are also against updating the map: You are the manager. If you think that a new map would really help the server, then shouldn't it be your task to try to convince bruny to let us help him revive network?

Right, okay. But it's about a bit of pick and choose too, though? Would you guys like to see an addition of a single new map on CTW.. Which would take longer to do than make a new game mode from scratch? I don't feel like that would add anything to a gamemode which no one really plays at the moment, and people would be more eager to test a new game mode than a new map. Because, looking back at it, Yusixs did add a "new" map to CTW and that didn't really change anything.

But I will add a poll to this topic
That if you guys want to see updated maps for your favorite servers, or if you would prefer we would focus our work on something fresh, something new. And depending on where that result goes, we could open a new topic discussing more in detail what you guys are looking for.

 

-----

I don't think there's much more to say about Flame's response, it was more of a well structured summary with what everyone else had said and a few new bits and pieces that I feel I've responded to above. But before I finish off this topic, I want to say that in the coming weeks I will be working on updating and fixing old and new issues, but also maybe even start thinking about a potential new server and planning that out. I also want to completely finish the drop zone minigame we have now, as on Friday me and Exief spent a handful of hours remaking parts of the plugins and server to work for 1.14.4. And as of right now there is a new little army dude in the lobby which you can use to access the server. It is not much at the moment and I am looking to make it more accessible even for those without the difficult-to-download texture pack. 

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