The Straw

[Swimsam1]

The Straw when combined with a strength potion and a golden Apple Makes you un killable in a sense.

I reached out to a previous server owner friend of mine and he stated  "The main attraction to modded servers is a combination of a low ban list, a good community, and easy to understand plugins"

For my specific point I will be hugging on the low ban list idea. All banned items that are currently banned are a result of a unfair gaining of items or killing of people. How ever the straw is not something only OP people can obtain, it is an item that can be made early on, and is a strategy more than an exploit. If Tekkit is a pvp allowed server why should we be restricted to not doing pvp the superior way. People like to claim that we wait outside of new player bases to kill them. This is 100% true, However does it change anything? the newer players dont usually have maxed power armor, so with or without this exploit they are an easy kill. However Power armor without this exploit makes the richer players virtually un kill able. I employ that there be a debate to un-ban this item. My points are as follows, Promotes more players for the server, Allows for a better pvp environment.

if I missed any information I am very sorry I am very busy.

EDIT. Many times staff will give 1 statement as then close the post before a response can be made. Like when it was first banned

https://imgur.com/gallery/4oxfd28

Please don’t do that because it’s not fair to the people who have something to say. I am not attacking any staff members specially and I hope I don’t come across rude

[Infernal]

This thing can eat up world liquids. If it is like balkons, wouldn't that ignore protection? especially if done from outside a claim? If it is safe though, I believe that Swimsam has an excellent idea here and I would love to see this item unbanned. (See if you have a good idea, i'm encouraging)

[Swimsam1]

It doesn't ignore protection actually I appreciate the support though!

Also I notice that so many so many suggestions go un-responded so i would employ staff to actually take this into consideration and respond.

I would love push back so that I can try to explain where I am coming from.

-Thanks, 

Sam

@brunyman

[Spring_Water]

There are two reasons for the straw being a restricted item as you know: 1) due to a PvP exploit and 2) a MFR exploit. Now if I  remember from conversations I’ve had in the past - because I’ve asked this same question myself - I want to say the MFR exploit was severe and lead to duping issues (someone fact check me on that please). I don’t know how this duping issue occured, and it sounds rediculous quite truthfully. However this lead to straw being restricted mostly for this reason.

 

I dont like restricted items quite honestly, but it helps with server integrity when need be. Unfair advantages that weren’t meant to be implemented in the first place should be addressed regardless of item.

 

I will have to defer this topic to another staff member, or player, who knows more. Maybe they can offer better insight. Thank you for asking this question however, dialogue leads to change.

[Infernal]

3 hours ago, Spring_Water said:

There are two reasons for the straw being a restricted item as you know: 1) due to a PvP exploit and 2) a MFR exploit. Now if I  remember from conversations I’ve had in the past - because I’ve asked this same question myself - I want to say the MFR exploit was severe and lead to duping issues (someone fact check me on that please). I don’t know how this duping issue occured, and it sounds rediculous quite truthfully. However this lead to straw being restricted mostly for this reason.

  

I dont like restricted items quite honestly, but it helps with server integrity when need be. Unfair advantages that weren’t meant to be implemented in the first place should be addressed regardless of item.

  

I will have to defer this topic to another staff member, or player, who knows more. Maybe they can offer better insight. Thank you for asking this question however, dialogue leads to change.

Correction Intelligent Dialogue leads to meaningful change. Like the stuff on this thread 

[Swimsam1]

? What duplicating issue? No one has ever heard of that until now. and if A dupe exploit is the main reason why is it banned under pvp exploit.

@Spring_Water

[Spring_Water]

I’m not sure I’m understanding your question. I stated it was banned for two reasons, and banned items don’t have to be mutually exclusive for the ban reasons. And if you read my post, I state what I know on the topic as well.  I could very well be incorrect about the duping issue (hence I said I don’t know how it happens), I just recall a conversation about it a few months back and it jogged my memory. 

@Swimsam777

[rurede94]

The "PvP Exploit" that the straw was banned for isn't an exploit at all. Using the straw, you are about to consume liquids and obtain different effects from most of them. Let's have a look at the different effects, shall we? From the wiki page:

Fluid	Effect	Duration
Chocolate Milk	Speed IV and Haste III Health Boost II	1:00 0:05
Destabilized Redstone	Causes Lightning to hit the Player
Energized Glowstone	Night Vision, Speed III and Jump III	1:00
Essence	Gives a single XP level
Ethanol	Speed and Haste	0:40
Gelid Cryotheum	Fire Resistance	8:00
Liquifacted Coal	Blindness	0:10
Meat	Restores 2 hunger points
Milk	Clears any active effect
Mushroom Soup	Restores 2 hunger points and Regeneration III	0:15
Lava	Sets the Player on fire
Resonant Ender	Randomly teleports the Player [1]
Sewage	Slowness, Poison and Nausea	0:40
Sludge	Poison, Nausea and Weakness	0:40
Tectonic Petrotheum	Haste IV and Resistance III	5:00
Water	Puts out flames when the Player is on fire
Zephyrean Aerotheum	Water Breathing Invisibility	4:00 1:00

(Note: some of these are ftb exclusive fluids, but it all works the same way)

The "PvP exploit" (I'm going to keep using quotes here because I'm not willing to call a perfectly normal functioning part of the game an exploit) in question involves the destabilized redstone liquid. You may look at it and think, "Hmm that's weird it says it only does that one thing, according to the wiki."  Striking you with lightning provides a very unique effect within itself which is not stated explicitly here. This status effect is that MOST buffs or debuffs on the player will be amplified and the duration extended.

 

But if you take a deeper look into vanilla minecraft alchemy, you'll understand exactly what effect this liquid should have on you. Let's look at the minecraft wiki for brewing. The wiki states that redstone is an modifier to existing potions. E.G. it extends the duration of whatever potion you add it to. 

 

With that being said, one can draw the conclusion that the straw being a tool for a PvP exploit is fallacious. I implore you to try the straw for yourself to see the effects that you can get from drinking various liquids in single player. It all works the same. 

In short: Redstone enhances potions ---->consume redstone to enhance buffs on player == Working perfectly as intended. 

EDIT:

As for the argument that the straw somehow is being used for a duplication glitch. I would say the burden of proof is on those that make such a claim. How can an item, which cannot hold a liquid, but can only consume liquids that are out in the open world, be used as a duplication device? There was a dupe glitch involving the plastic cup, which is why the item is banned. But where the two items share the same functionality in that you're able to consume liquids using one or the other, the straw lacks the capacity to hold objects. 

 

Sources: 
https://ftbwiki.org/Straw
https://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Brewing

 

[Swimsam1]

My main questions is: people like to make the claim that in benefit the server making it more positive, due to the fact it is easier to kill the new players. How never the straw is not needed to kill new players it is needed to kill the more advanced players. 

Since when do we get rid if items because people are unaware of their functionality?

[Infernal]

I (once again begrudgingly) am forced to agree with Swimsam here. If there is no actual dupe glitch, then I think the straw should be allowed. 

[GravityCube]

The redstone boost could be disabled so it is not too overpowered.

[Henk]

"PVP exploit" might have been the incorrect way to label it, and I agree, the straw can definitely have it's uses in PVP, if it is- for example - a 1v1 and both players are using this effect. But I don't think it is fair that you guys assume that the item is banned merely because players are not informed about it's proper uses- because more often than not, -and the reason why it was banned- is that players would hide outside claims or track players down to then take them out using this overpowered effect. Yes, the effect is not as overpowered if both are using it- but if you're walking around your own claim, building, progressing thru the pack.. you name it. You are not prepared to pvp, you aren't expecting it, and therefore you don't have these effects active.

It gives an extremely unfair advantage towards the attacker.

17 hours ago, Swimsam777 said:

Since when do we get rid if items because people are unaware of their functionality

And as I stated above, that's not why it was removed. It was because it gave an unfair advantage in a PVP setting, and would be considered "overpowered".

We have also banned items in the past for this reason as well.

 

At the current state the straw is in, I am not looking to unban the item- However, if certain effects can be limited, (heavily)nerfed or completely disabled.

[rurede94]

Can I get an example of some of said items that were too "overpowered" in a PvP setting? PvP using overpowered items is a bad thing, especially creative items because those aren't available to the general public and only donors. But an item that literally any person in the game has access to? I think there's an issue with the term overpowered being totally subjective here. Everything has a power level. Diamond player fighting another player wearing iron armor? Overpowered. Two hits to kill someone in full power armour without golden apple buffs, in my opinion, just a higher level of PvP. The staff in the past has tried to ban PvP or make it "opt-in" to try to quell things only to be met with vicious opposition because the server is unique in the sense that it allows unfettered PvP. As far as I know. The perpetrators of the past mostly PvPed to prey on new players and made their lives hell. But camping another player and not letting them play the game is just breaking a different rule of harassment. Completely removing a method of higher level PvP content is a slippery slope to removing it altogether. 

I've also fought in settings where more than one parties have had the "overpowered" buffs and enjoyed it thoroughly.  

[Infernal]

Hey APPROVE THIS. 

I agree, if anything the straw levels the playing field and allows more interplay in PVP, especially since balkons is banned. 

[Swimsam1]

The bottom line I’m trying to display to you @Henk is that there are two obvious ways of looking at this: 

since when do we ban items because they make it easy to kill.

1. Makes pvp impossible between advance players 

3. Gives a huge advantage to players who know how to use it. 

Now their is a solution just make sure people know of this, make a post on forums tell the staff, it’s not a huge secret.

i appreciate the feedback

[Swimsam1]

I would like to make one more defense. The straw is a 1 to 2 hit kill. But so are potions if harming, but the difference is it’s harder to justify banning a non modded item, so if your gonna ban the straw why did you leave potions of harming out?

[Swimsam1]

@Henk